Look CX7 pedals - a rare sight these days

How many degrees or fraction of a degree does one wedge (for Look specifically) pronate or supinate the cleat in relation to the shoe? .5, 1? I know how many degrees I need from my now in the trash Look CX7s.
Howie


Thanks for your question. The Look pedals that did offer tilt had options of
Zero or flat
1.5 degrees either varus or valgus
And
3 degrees of varus or valgus

Our Cleat Wedges are one degree each. Two cleat wedges equals 2 degrees and so on.

Our In The Shoe (ITS) wedges are 1.5 degrees. In essence they have a similar affect in spite of the difference.


Paul Swift

What should a bike fit feel like?

The bike should almost disappear. Everything should be adjusted to your body as best as possible so you forget about the bike and enjoy the ride.

Ever have something happen Just Riding Along?

Travis Evans just opened up this shop in Maryland. We are proud to be workng with him.

Happy Pedals

Paul

We have a new "BUZZ" word -

Hi Paul and Russ,

I wanted to put in a follow up email with regards to my time down south. The two day course was Nirvana, I feel more comfortable with the bike fit process. Paul, I think your advice was spot on with regards to getting my feet wet and doing some fits prior to coming down. This allowed me to align myself with the information which has contributed to building a solid platform as a bike fitter. Wow, check out those buzz words!
Dave BC Bike Fit

In case you are not familiar with our BUZZ words. We try not using them during the fit but look for the cyclist to use them. We know we are on track when we hear BUZZ words.

If you have some you would like to share let us know.

Cheers

Bicycling Medicine

www.arniebakercycling.com

"Bicycling Medicine" is a must read for all bike fitters. It is also a great book to keep in your bike fit area as a reference.

If you ever get a chance to meet Arnie he is very interesting. I also suggest you take one of his trainer classes. About 50 plus cyclists on trainers in his front yard. A lecture follows.

Swifty

new kid on the block

http://www.greshfit.com/

This kid has a very cool video on bike fit somewhere on the web....can anyone find it? We would like to share it with all of you.

Swifty

bars and saddles

Just wanted to mention we fit another cyclist with the FSA Wing Pro road bars today.
We are having a lot of luck with this bar and helping people (men and women) get comfortable.

By the way this person (man) also purchased a saddle - after trying SEVERAL they chose a Women's version of the toupe. Do not get caught into thinking saddles are always gender specific. Try a men's and women's model and see what you find.

Cheers

OK - by now you know we like Speedplay

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/blog/wind-tunnel-tests-prove-that-speedplay-pedals-are-faster/

But just another bonus is - they are FAST
check out the link

BikeFit Pros in the news

Can you name the BikeFit Pros on the podium. Two of them are in this photo. They are both West coast cyclists.

Be the first to send us an e-mail with thier names and you get half off your next order.

Dead line - August 31 2009


Reminder - know someone looking for Education - we have one spot available September 9/10 in Woodinville.

another reason to give in?

http://www.bont.com/cycling/pages/bontcrono.html

If you are doing a fit and the cyclist's feet point out (toes rotate outward) would you keep them straight if they had the shoe in the link above?

Often we hear aero dynamics taking precedence in a fit. Mostly out of ignorance but it happens.

We have nothing against this shoe. I think the shoe is cool...well probably hotter than hell but a very cool shoe.

If anyone gets to fit someone with these we would love to hear about it.

Cheers

Health Care professionals – Clinicians – BikeFit Education

We have selected a few dates in Seattle for BikeFitPro education
1) Oct 17-18
2) Nov 14-15
3) Dec 5-6 .

Oct and Nov are dedicated to Level 1 (Green Level) and the Dec class is dedicated to Level 2 (Red Level). Each class is ~17 CEU’s.

More information should be posted on our web site soon.
Yes you may sit in on any class a second time for a reduced fee.

Additional thought on the "Should We" Question

I guess I would call this a continuation of Paul's previous post "Should We." I find this question interesting because I am a board certified and licensed Occupational Therapy Assistant and work with Physical Therapists and other Rehabilitation professionals all the time. I of course do not know the exact context that the debate took place in but I find it interesting that the argument came about. I have also thought about the Prescriptive -vs- Preventative idea although from a little different perspective than the one Paul presents but my overall conclusions seem to be in line with what Paul discussed in his Should we post.

The fact that putting a wedge in someone's shoe is prescriptive medicine is a little far reaching, if indeed that is the exact verbiage which was used. Really to be prescriptive, at least the way I understand it, one of two things have to be true. Either the thing being "prescribed" has to have some kind of control which is placed on it, usually by the government, which makes it illegal to have without a prescription from a licensed professional. The other way is a baby aspirin or a cane can be prescribed by a medical professional and then insurance will many times cover it, which would be prescriptive medicine. The fact that a medical professional told you to use this for a medical need makes it prescriptive. Since wedges are not regulated and presumablely a bike shop employee is not a medical professional you do not have any prescribing of anything going on. Now I would believe that if this Physical Therapist is doing a fitting as a Physical Therapist and tells a client they need a wedge for a specific issue the client is having, such as pain, then it probably just became prescriptive. I won't even guess if it would be prescriptive if the same Physical Therapist did a fit outside of the therapy setting and said they need a wedge. Would that or would that not be prescriptive? I really don't know but I personally error on the side of it would be.

I have to keep all kinds of insurance for myself and my fitting business because I have more knowledge of the human body and medicine which makes me more liable if something I would do as a fitter, weather or not I am in a therapy setting, has a negative impact on the client. I would also suggest that each fitter even without a similar background as mine look into some insurance coverages as nothing can stop someone from at least saying that what you did made something worse. However, that does not make anything a fitter does prescriptive. It is also why fitters without a high degree of knowledge and confidence should be at least aware of this fact. And have some contact with medical professionals so if they see something that makes them uneasy or that they are not completely competent in they can direct their client on for a "second opinion" so to speak. This is also why during training Paul tells student to be careful when people are coming to you with pain and have not consulted with a medical professional to identify the source of the pain. You should encourage them to seek medical advice before doing the fit and always document everything. This can do nothing but make your client even more confident in your services and knowledge weather or not something is actually found as a problem by the medical professional.

On this same note, every situation is different and I myself have to be somewhat careful about this. If a fitter is working with a client and telling them that they have all kinds of issues with different anatomy of their body. Then sells them products and advice on how to fix these issues they had better have a really good background in what they are talking about, and the insurance to back that up. Reason being if that client later has issues and they go to a medical professional for help and that medical professional starts discounting or contradicting what was done then there is likely going to be, at the very least, a very unhappy client and at worst legal issues to deal with. That is why USA cycling coaches, personal trainers, medical professionals, and the like; have insurance, ongoing training, and certifications to back up what they say they know. The phrase "above all, do no Harm" from the Hippocratic Oath which most medical professionals recite during graduation comes to mind. I doubt anyone is out to knowingly make a person worse on purpose, but they need to know when they are outside their knowledge base; which is why people contact Paul for training in the first place. Trying to prevent a problem is a good thing but can be harder to prove since no problem ever happens. Maybe the phrase should be "Above all, do no Harm and if you see a potential problem fix it."

Along this same vein, I am a Certified Strength and Training Specialist. When I am working with a client and they are lifting heavy weights, or light weight for that matter, I will often have them wear a lifting belt and even wrist support to "prevent" injury. Do they have to wear it to perform the lift, Nope? In most cases they could lift fine for a long time without it but it is there to prevent injury. It is also there to remind them to tighten their ABS, keep their back straight, keep their wrists straight, it's a reminder. Yes, they do provide support and maybe even correct some issues but mostly they are preventative. I do not feel that I should wait until an injury occurs to use them because that is too late. If you read the article "Footloose" by Steve Hogg which Paul has in his Articles Section on the website Steve talks about foot wedges providing tactile feedback to our brains which creates an awareness that helps us better coordinate movements and prevent overuse injuries. The same thing is true when I use the belt and wrist supports. The fact that the client can feel them provides feedback so they remember to lift correctly and prevent injury. These are not in my opinion prescriptive items.

With all of this said I agree with Paul that what most fitters are doing when wedging a foot is not prescriptive, and is preventative, and carries with it little liability. Hell when I went in to buy running shoes someone looked at my foot and made a recommendation on what shoe I should buy based on how much I pronated. This was preventative, I don't have any issues at this time but I could if a started running 100 miles a week without the proper shoes. If they would have done nothing about the pronation and I did start running a lot then I wouldn't have been happy with the shoes and that is bad for their business. By knowing what over pronation is and addressing it preventatively they are keeping a customer happy, good business move.

My other point woven into this whole thing is I think fitters need to understand that they are incurring an amount of risk when doing a fit. There is a chance that if they choose to wedge or not wedge a person things could get worse. I do not believe the risk is large and I think that if the fitter is running their business correctly they will know about a negative issue before anything bad comes about, but the risk is always there and a fitter should be prepared for it.

Michael Irwin

Should we?

Paul – at a recent bike fit class I attended a physical therapist/bike fitter was rather adamant that bike fitters shouldn't be playing with wedges and it was "prescriptive medicine" and it sparked some interesting debate.

Thanks for the question. There are many ways to look at the forefoot tilt issue. Here are few.

You can choose to ignore it but you are knowingly allowing people to connect improperly.

If you do not look at this area why bother with things like seat height? Perhaps a PT should be the only person to address seat height as well….?

I believe we do bike fits as a form of pre-hab. We do this so cyclists may potentially avoid Rehab. Perhaps the PT, knowing this, is actually waiting for the injuries/discomfort to occur – this way he can fault the bike fitters as being incapable of a good bike fit. This may make him look like a hero. Not sure if this is insecurity or self promoting. Either way it is disappointing to hear this.

It is well documented now that over 90 percent of the population has a tilt or angle at the forefoot. Chances are less than 10 percent will be close to getting this connection correct, if you do not address it. Not good odds.

I believe bike fit is about helping people. A thirsty man will feel much better with a half glass of water but a full glass will do him even better. You decide if you want to offer a half glass service or a full glass service.

I could go on and on but I would prefer to just share the experiences and knowledge we have to help others help others.

Lastly I am sure others could share even more reasons why we try to provide the full glass of water.

Feet roll out because knees are out - the V-twin

I had a customer come in recently with some really big feet (size 15.5). Anyway when this guy pedals, his knees flare way out to the sides and it appears that the weight distribution on his cleats is far greater on the lateral side and limited by the Sidi shoe itself. So when he pedals his feet want to roll to the outside and that of course pulls his knees out.

First you address the stance width – move the cleat "in" to move the foot out. (this is even before wedging or rotation)
Since he has Look Delta I am guessing you install his pedals with a pedal wrench and not an allen key. He probably needs a much wider stance width so you can add a 20mm pedal spacer.

Keep in mind the more V-twin or bow legged one rides/pedals the chances are you need to add another wedge – thick to the inside.

Most of the pressure is on the outside since he is pedaling with knees out and not straight up and down.

Goal – move the foot out and under the knee – if the knee is still out after moving the cleat and adding a 20mm spacer. Add a varus wedge in addition to his current needs.

One last comment

The cyclist’s knees go where they want to go. The goal is put the foot underneath the knee. It is not the big feet that is pulling the knee out. The knee is out because the feet are too narrow for this cyclist.

Leg Length question

I have a client with a leg length discrepancy of 3/8 inches. What are your thoughts on using a quantity of 4 Leg Length Shims? (The Steve Hogg's Leg Length Shims which are 3 mm thick.)

I know a custom shoe or adjustable cranks or a custom platform riser would be ideal...and more costly.

They say shim/wedge adjust for about haft the difference and position the cleat to aid in crank lever length to assist also.

Your thoughts?

In general, Leg length issues in this range - we build around half of the distance as you mentioned.
4 Leg Length shims would be closer to 1/2 inch.

Sight unseen (in general) I would try one leg length shim and perhaps an alternate stack of wedges with a 3/8 difference.

If the cyclist has no previous compensation this can be a relatively big jump. You can always add a little over time. Even a small amount is better than no compensation which they may already be used to while cycling.

Initially I would not jump to different length cranks or making something custom. We have a good solution that will work well with our current Leg Length Shims and Cleat Wedges - this also saves time and money vs a new cranks and custom fabrication.

Deformed cleat mounting - Was there influence in this design?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/bontrager-rl-road-shoes/82609

By now some of you have noticed that a cleat may deform when you tighten it down on a very small shoe. This of course makes it difficult to clip into the pedal.

Well, here is the first time I have seen an entity outside of Bike Fitting get a nice photo of this and explain it well. Unfortunately it is not very flattering for Trek.

Notice the tilt actually puts a valgus cant to the interface. Michael Sylvestor told me he uses our cleat wedges in a valgus direction for one of his shoes (not sure why he did not try to move the foot outward to address the issue...he explained but that is another story for another day). Maybe there was some influence for this in the Trek shoe shown in the link??

Fitters beware when working with these shoes.

articles on BikeFit.com

Check out a recent article from down under from the Man himself Steve Hogg….well OK I just never got around to posting it when I got it last year.
ENJOY!!!
See “Footloose” at http://bikefit.com/articles.php

If you know of any other articles you think are post worthy or you are looking to move up from green to red level fitter send us what you have.

Cheers

Interbike - booth # 406

Check out who is coming to Interbike

So far we have announced the fastest bike fitter in the world John Howard
And he is now his own man, Todd Carver

See when you can meet with them at Interbike in our booth - #406
http://bikefit.com/schedule08.php

Any guess who will be next?